2022 11 25 EMC

I'm not really the fan that we stopped the EMC testing or we do not start the EMC testing because we are missing twisted cable For the CAN communication,
so I would definitely start with the typical or recommended twisted pair cable for the cable for the CAN communication
and As soon as BMW will be able to provide you the original cable harness then you can switch here
Okay ,As I said, maybe it's good for the PV but if there are in-between tests at least from the other side we already have
harnesses that we can use.
Okay, let's proceed
This is just the description of the dut the hardware architecture
The pinning, I think this is all known
There's also for samples the definition which do we test for complete battery or BMS so from the side
The ESDH test we do on BMS only not with the battery .
so this this will be the main difference in the complete PV test between Hela and EVE that for EVE the complete battery should be tested.
So far, from my point of view it's clear does EVE have any questions till now?
Yeah, this is the matrix which operational modes to do test.
the different of definition of the operating modes.
Is that clear? I think for the previous test that was okay.
And I would go to the yeah .
this ist the surrounding definition.
This is a definition of yeah starters of operating modes.
Continuing here, so which signals you have to be monitored via the CAN environment
So this would be a question to EVE. Can you read out all these?
Values that we have defined here via your canoe environment.

Great.
And we can continue because we want to, yeah, this is just the load that we are using the one kilo ohm resistor.
This is the only background to not discharge the battery too fast during the test.
We made a comparison once with a smaller resistor.
I think it was 25 ohms and EMC emission behavior was the same.
So there's no difference what kind of load is attached.
Okay, question, EV uses the same one kilo ohm resistor.
Ok, thanks
As mentioned in this test, we are using one kilo ohm for this project to not discharge the battery cells too fast.
So we can continue testing the whole day and do not recharge overnight each time.
If we have a higher discharge current, we might recharge it more frequently.

This setup we have already confirmed previously.
As mentioned, we used a different load because we had this discussion I think in springtime.
We used instead of one kilo ohm, we have used 25 ohms.
It's a load resistor.
And for all the emission tests, there was no difference.
This is why we met the Delta test to confirm that we do not somehow improve this emission by using a high ohmic load.
So the resistor value before was how much?
25 ohms you said?
In this test plan, we always used one kilo ohms and in the springtime we made a Delta test where we used I think it was 25 ohms.
So we had two amps of load current.
Yeah emission, no difference in the test we did.
So then we confirmed we can stick with one kilo ohm.
Okay so then we can continue.
The harnesses.
This is important and here is also the mentioning differential sector lines can be twisted.
I think this is one of the topics which basically jumped.
So question to Eve, can you change your test setup in order to use twisted pair wires or have you changed this already?
What's the status?
So based on this EMC test plan for the two CAN communications including CrashCAN you need to use twisted pair lines, twisted pair wires.
As far as I understood last week you did not use twisted pairs for the CAN communications.
Have you changed this already or what is the status?

Is that correct? Okay. Please then take a look in the...
Sorry, can you please repeat?
Yeah, its connection is lost somehow. I was not able to hear everything,
but I think I understood your question more or less.
So your question is BMW going to provide for the EMC PV product validation original cable harness, right?
Okay, so my answer is we are now trying to provide this cable harness to you,
but please in the meantime try to use twisted pair cables for the tests you are still doing,
if you are still doing some tests at EV side now.
Yeah. Okay, perfect.
Maybe also another hint from my side, since we are referring to the PV tests.
In the PV we have more EMC tests than in the DV.
So if you still have open questions about other tests which you haven't performed yet,
maybe please also think about these open questions that we answered them before we start the PV.
Just as a hint, even if we still have time, but please, please think about that.
And another hint from my side, the twisting is defined in the DKA from BMW.
For example, there's the 55 millimeter untwisted at each connector and also the winding,
I'd say length, it is somehow defined. So I don't have the DKA open right now,
but if you have questions and if you need to modify it by yourself,
please make sure you do it as it is used in the car.
This is also the reason why I would prefer if it's possible that BMW provides so much
because then it's way more those details are solved.
Okay. Karina, just once again referring to your question, to your remark,
you said that EV should double check all the EMC PV tests again in case they have any further questions.
Yeah, that's right. So of course, currently they are still working on the PV plan,
so it's not finished yet. But if we know when we start or if we know the date when we will start with the EMC test on the PV.
maybe this time we can also have more EMC meetings in order to ensure that we use the right test set up before we start with these tests.
So just now already a hint that we still have to keep this in mind even if the PV is not in the next weeks,
but that we don't have the same problems.
Because here we have the whole test sequence of all EMC tests and not only a few selected.

Okay, one question regarding CAN communication and generally about the wires.
Do you use the same length or do you use the length from the specification from the test plan here?
Do we have the same length? Yeah, so we're having for the for the KL30, for the CAN communication?
Do we have the same wire length in your test setup?

Okay, maybe also here this is a good point, a hint from my side for the strip line test.
You need to have a length of 1.5 meters below the septum and just because the battery is much higher than a normal ECU.
you already need some length of the wiring to put the harness down to the foam surface.
So maybe the 1.7 for 2 meters is not long enough to fulfill the 1.5 meters below the septum.
So for our testing I think we even have to exceed the length here to be able to perform the test.
So how much should EV use?
Only for SL tests, so maybe then if it does not fit for your setup you might want to create a harness with 2.2 meters
and check if you can shorten it a bit.
But if you start with 2.2 meters you should be on the safe side only for strip line testing.

Yeah, I'm just asking you Mr. Geller
because I'm making some notes now and I want to have everything documented. Yep, that's very good.
Okay, so then we proceed.
I think here this is just the standard parameters how to proceed with the emission testing.
This is the first drawing of the setup conducted emission.
You have seen the photos, it looks a bit different but the main difference was the twisted CAN wiring.
But the length was okay in the EV setup.

This is also one of my next questions.
Is the positioning of all the lin of the CAN and of the load exactly the same within the test setup both at hela and EV side?
I don't know if you have double checked this.
I have the other slides with the photos of the setup. So as much as I can see we can check over there.
In most cases it's very similar but maybe not identical.
But I don't think identical is possible but it should be as close as you can realize it.
Yeah, plus or minus should be more or less the same. Maybe an additional question.
The lin and all the yeah especially the listens they are the same.

So same company, same specification, right?
That's a good question. The specification of course is the same because it goes back to the GS-norm.
For the opto-CAN I saw on the pictures it's a different supplier.
Yeah but for the opto-CAN this should not make normally a difference, right?
Also for the listen it should not make a difference as long as it is the same specification.
That's correct. So once again question to EV. Do the lin have the specification from the BMW GS-norm?
I'm writing now some meeting minutes and yeah, you can just answer to the email.
Yeah, I would like to switch to the photo now.
Yes, please.
Presentation because it makes sense.
So this is the conducted emission setup.
So you can see basically the lisn are quite well in the same locations for both tests.
They even look from the size that look similar.
OptoCan is also at the same location, but it's a different type.
And one difference was, as noted, our OptoCan is connected to the copper ground.
And the battery here is a little bit closer to the lisn.
Isn't this set up?
And of course, then we have the topic with the not twisted can,
but this is the main difference here.
Otherwise it is fairly similar.
So what's the cause?

Mr. Geller, will the distance from the battery to the lisn make any difference?
I would try to use more or less the same distance.
So I don't know.
Yeah, normally we always do delta tests.
We always do a delta tests and check if we're having a difference.
So difficult to say exactly, but you'll see we have a banana plug here and the connector at the lisn.
And then we can put the sub D connector just in between.
So it's something like 10 centimeters.
Yeah, of course.
But in the EMC test plan here, it is 200 millimeters, but this is the wiring.
And if we use the wiring from the top of the battery and we have to go down to the lISN, because they are on the ground plane.
yeah, then we have the first 10 centimeters already to go to the insulation support.
So this is why it's shorter in this case.

It's more or less exactly the length of the harness because the harness should be 200 millimeter.
Of course it has allowance to go higher, but it's not exactly the distance,but more the length of the harness.
Can you add a comment here, Mr. Geller,in the PDF or so?
That we, because I would understand the same way that EV understood and that this is a distance of 20 centimeters between the DUT and the LISN,
and not of the cable length.
Yeah, maybe you added to your notes.
I am definitely, yeah.
Quite, then we can check because it's,
I don't own the test plan, but yeah, if we have.

So question, so this means that the cable length should be 20 centimeters, 200 millimeters,
but the distance between the battery and the DUT should be roughly, I can say from the picture, about 10 centimeters, right?
Yeah, looks like it could be 10 or 12.
Yeah, okay.
It's not 20, not 20 for sure.

And maybe the wiring could also be maybe 25 centimeters to allow some, yeah, some to say moving to go to the ground plane.
Yeah, but I guess the main difference that we observe is that the can situation.
This would be my guess that the distance might play a role,but not as much.
Okay, then we can continue here, I guess.
I don't go through this table, maybe just as a notice,the middle wave band now is class three in the test.
So this sentence here on the top from middle wave class three standard.
Thinking you are a report you evaluated according to class five, because everything else is class five, but middle wave is an exception.

Okay, then let's go to radiated emission.
Okay, any questions to this drawing or shall we just go to the picture?
Yeah, I think I hope that the distances according to the radiated should be the same.
Yeah, in both test cases,I don't think we have any differences.
Or does EV respect the specification here from the test setup from the test plan?
There's talk for all the users in different categories.

Yeah. So from this picture, it looks basically okay, but of course we cannot measure it exactly.
Um, the details here are the, , to say that the wiring harness location close to the battery and also close to the lisn.
because you see there's some kind of 45 degrees angle.
And here is a detailed view of the battery side from hella.
So we just put the wiring close to each other, straight down to the insulating foam, put it to the front vertically to the table front.
And then here we start with a wiring that is measured the 1.5 meters.
And you see in your picture, I don't have a detailed view, but it is floating quite freely and which will for sure make a difference here.
Yeah.
I have an additional question.
The black wire on the, on the right hand side of the picture.
So on the, in the HelLa setup, um, it's connected to the table, um, to this.

I don't know if it's a, if it's a cable shoe or if it's a different house, but in the EV setup, I see a, um, um, red wire.
Do you have the same type of connection to the ground plane?
Or how, how is it done?

Exactly.

You mean for the ground connection, right?
So I don't know Mr. Galle, ground wire KF41 looks from the pictures to be about 20 centimeters long I would say.
Yeah, 20 maybe 25 at maximum.
And as further detail it has a thick diameter and I think this one is even an HF wiring.
So it has a wide surface to have a very good ground connection.
and here we use a screw clamp at the other end which is then glued by copper tape to the ground to have also a broad surface for connection.
That's why I saw this distance and I saw the additional copper tape and this is how you ensure really good ground connection.
I cannot see from the picture from EV but it looks a little bit different.
That's why I asked.
Nevertheless I just wrote here in the meeting minutes about this one.
Please double check it again.
Maybe you can send us a picture how it looks like on your side and yeah just make sure that it is the same.
Perfect.
I will check if I can provide a further picture.
Okay so we can continue.
Maybe wait a second please.
You can continue discussion.
Okay yeah so this is the other test setup.
Does EV have any other specific questions regarding here the radiated test setup?
CV.
This test you haven't done so far.
Before you collect questions you might check our test report on Panama because there are pictures of our setup.
and then you can check the pictures and consider if you have further questions.
So as preparation for the PV.
Continue here.
Yes.
Current probe.
I don't know if you have performed the CP test.
Hello sorry.
EV did you run so far the CP test yeah current probe test?

Let's check it.
Yeah, check this.
Then I think is the next one.
No, this one you haven't done as well.
Now should be the this one.
Not I'm not browsing quickly to this trip line mission because this is also this is something you have done.
And here, for example, you see the 1.5 meters below the septum.
Then you need to go some distance to the battery and you see the 200 millimeters here is really the distance from DUT to the septum.
So you need 300 millimeters in theory to go to the DUT.
But then since we go straight up some 100 or 150 millimeters more on this side.
And on the other side, you need to go to the LISN and to the CAN.
So this is why I put the comment that you might need 2.2 meters for this harness.
Okay, exactly.

Yeah, maybe in the lab you have to do it with a MC tester and check that you can fit it well.
And then if it's still above two meters shortness to two length that makes the test possible.
2.2 meters is a good starting point from my point of view.
You might keep it even a bit longer and then shorten it during the test.
Referrably on this side on the LISN side so you do not mess around with the connector side.
Okay, so I think I have a picture of this as well.
So I can't see too much here.
Just that here I also see that from the battery side the harness goes not straight down to the support.
and might be the battery is closer than 20 centimeters.
Here it's also not that good to see because it's on the small picture you see there's a certain distance.
And again the wiring goes straight down and is then fixed with tape on the isolating foam.
So we try to make really rectangular angles.
I think here in this case we just need some more pictures from EV just to compare the two test setups again, right?
Because it's...
Yeah, yeah, of course from this picture it's difficult to see.
But also maybe this is another important point the orientation of the battery is different the test.
Oh yeah, you're absolutely right.
And here you can see also that we use a white copper connection to the ground.
It's not a thin wiring but from this perspective you can see it's a flat and white copper inside.

So let's we are running out of the time, don't know how much we can still do but let's try.
So this is the interference testing BCI.
For this test we need to check the pictures.
Are there any questions in general to the setup?
Do you have any questions regarding the BCI test setup?
Basically, it looks here already quite similar and I don't have all the pictures from other side.
So the wiring goes down, here's the measuring clamp, induction clamp.
So this is now from my point of view quite similar.
There are some further details.
The only topic was the can but otherwise go further comments here.
Okay.
And the last test I think that you performed was the ALS-E testing.
Any questions to the picture itself or to the drawing?
I don't even know if I got a, no I don't even have a picture for this.
So either there was no picture or there was no finding on the picture.
And then we have covered all the tests that you have performed.
I guess maybe there's something with ESD.
Or question for to EVE. Are there any questions at this time to the further setups?
Okay.
Then let's do the following.
As I said, I just wrote some meeting minutes.
I will send it just after this meeting to everyone.
Should we schedule also for next Friday an additional meeting just to make sure that all topics have been clarified?
Same hour, same time?
Next Friday we can clarify really everything, at least not reworking the test plan.
Because this would then if we do it officially it needs a signature.
At the end what I wrote here are mainly questions and additional information from EVE.
So EVE please check the meeting minutes and you can reply to us.
But nevertheless I will move this meeting for next Friday.
Okay.
Then hear from you lately next week on Friday.
Thank you everyone.